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maryellen & others - have contacted the powers that be to get confirmation about the fabled archive....
ReplyDeleteFantastic, Gary! How did you do it?
DeleteI am following/followed on Twitter by some of the cast & writers, so have asked them this morning if it still exists & if so is it used!
DeleteIs there a card for Cats, Gary? 😺
ReplyDeleteNot that I can find Archerphile!
DeleteI did suggest that it might have been archived electronically.
DeleteIf it does exist it is not sufficiently used to provide accurate continuity. Perhaps, as I have long suspected, the qualification to be an Archers SL is “must be able to read or write - not necessarily both.
Pierre - You ARE awful. But I like you....
DeleteThe day Jill says to Peggy Do you remember Walter Gabriel’s bulldog Butch who was a present from Debbie Glover in 1958 and had to be put down June 1972 - I’m quitting!
DeletePierre ✔️✔️✔️✔️✔️
ReplyDeleteGood luck GG,
ReplyDeletePierre ✔️✔️
I’ve never understood how you can do one without the other, but apparently in earlier centuries the emphasis was on teaching the “lower classes” to read - so they could read the Bible - and writing wasn’t considered a necessary skill.
ReplyDeleteThe only one of those early canines I can actually remember is ‘Turpin’ owned by Jack and Peggy Archer at THE BULL. I remember thinking it was a good name for a dog, after Dick Turpin, the highwayman, and I tried to persuade my Dad to change the name of his cocker spaniel gun dog, Rip, to Turpin. Obviously he wouldn’t!
ReplyDeleteHave just received this reply from Archers scriptwriter Keri Davies regarding the infamous card archive & whether it exists;
ReplyDelete"It most certainly does. The archive is predominantly digital now, but yes occasionally we do refer back to some of the original cards. There are 20,000 of them!"
Mega-thanks, Gary. That’s terminated a recurrent blog thread.
DeleteThey do not refer back frequently enough. If the information is available what is the excuse for ignoring it to suit a nes storyline?
DeleteCan you gove concrete examples?
DeleteThere have been many discussions re character reversals.
DeleteDon’t think that has terminated the discussion here Maryellen, I’m sure it will be referred to again especially if Gary gets any more info from Keri!
DeleteI don’t think these so called ‘character reversals’ are concrete examples of scriptwriters ignoring the card catalogue because the cards record facts not opinions. In my view they are examples of character development, the playwright’s specialty. Some characters, like Bert and Oliver, don’t get fully developed and remain two-dimensional. Some are better developed, like Ed Grundy, who is neithe black or white but an interesting shade of grey, with both good points and bad points. I hope Gavin’s better nature is allowed to prevail, but fear listeners who like their goodies and baddies will call it character reversal.
DeleteVery impressed with the contacts you keep making,Gary.
ReplyDeleteYou are getting your foot in the door there.
Great stuff.
Paul Brodick has better watch his step.
As the latest initiator of TA archive card collection debate thanks 👏🏻 Gary for your update confirming
ReplyDeleteit still exists but my thoughts run alongside Pierre & LJ.
Regarding reading & writing, none of my colleagues would doubt my reading abilities but when faced with my handwriting.........
ReplyDeleteI don’t think the archive cards would cover character, but surely property details, numbers of rooms for instance?
I don't think it's a case of GG getting his foot in the door.
ReplyDeleteI think both his feet are now firmly planted under the table.
Your a very ambitious man Gary.
Well done !
How did this mornings presentation go ?
Oh, that's not until NEXT Sunday MrsP.
DeleteLast Tango in Halifax is back tonight - hooray, hooray, hooray! (It’s okay to say this on this blog because Sally Wainwright was a TA scriptwriter early in her career, responsible for the raid on the village post office!)
ReplyDeleteYes indeed maryellen “Last Tango” - yay 🤗 👏🏻 I did not know Sally W was a SW for TA early in her career interesting!
DeleteGary, what is the subject of your presentation next week? Sorry if already informed and I missed or forgot! It’s my age!!😉
ReplyDeleteSince you DID ask Ev - here goes...!
Delete(deep breath)
Ambridge vs Springfield - The Startling Similarities Between Groups of Individuals Thousands of Miles Apart & What Would Happen if They Ever Collided...?
The Archers & The Simpsons. Both are beloved. Both are real. Both are apparently dysfunctional. Are both in need of new blood? I intend to investigate the very real possibility of a "Mass Life Exchange" programme between the two communities.
In order to strengthen the so called "special relationship" between the UK & the US, it has been suggested (by me) that several inhabitants of each swap places.Using state of the art rigorous scientific experimentation (a variation of "Top Trumps" playing cards), I will anticipate the friendships, conflicts and the lessons that could be learned from such an undertaking. Would there be love? Would there be loathing? Would there be a sympathetic, mutual understanding of life as lived in a small, seemingly insular environment? Would it be held up by future generations as a beacon of hope? Or would there be a horrific fight to the death amongst the participants? And if so - who would be the victor?
It is with full expectation that this paper will be adopted as a blueprint for a future United Nations initiative. (Or at least a Comic Relief crossover...)
This sounds highly entertaining, Gary !
DeleteThank you, Gary! Am much enlightened! 😊 🧐👏Hope to view this live on u tube if I can figure out how to get there!
ReplyDeleteacademicarchers.net should have either a link or at the very least the details of where to find one I imagine.
DeleteWhat an interesting topic about the cards. I love that they still exist and used.
ReplyDeleteI realise that many TA characters have changed over the years.
I am certainly very different, than I was 10 years ago.
I have moved with the times, and as such Life + its outlook is not the same.
I hope that I am adapting to so many life changes.
Surely the TA characters, are doing just the same.
One thing I picked up from the TA Omnibus this morning, is the Jim, Alistair + Jazzer (+ spider) triangle.
ReplyDeleteThey are so content together, but is this a good thing?
Neither Alistair, nor Jazzer, have have a "date" for many months.
Is this their life now, I hope not.
Yes GG - have spent the last hour viewing AA website and am now enlightened.
ReplyDeleteHave yet to understand how to access for viewing you presentation next Sunday.
I am aware of the 'Simpsons' but have never seen it.
Is it possible to understand your presentation without working knowledge of the Simpsons ?
Oh, absolutely MrsP! I'm just going to be talking general comedy nonsense for about 5 minutes - nothing scientific or specific in any way, shape or form!
Deletecarolyn. How are feeling today?
ReplyDeleteI'm fine, Stasia, thanks, no pain - just rather cautious about keeping the wound clean, dry, no heavy liftiing etc. This has GOT to succeed ! Whoops, should have answered on t'other blog....
DeleteKate sounded quite 'grown up' tonight as Alice put it.
ReplyDeleteGood luck to Johnny and Freddie, sharing a house with Hannah.
Poor Kate! Even though she annoys me in more ways than I can count, I did feel a pang or two of empathy for her this evening. I don't exactly dislike the poor creature, but I don't think she is a monster either. And I do think she's very well acted!
ReplyDeleteYes, her tears sounded very real when the test was negative. Gary, we could do with a bit of light hearted comedy in TA! You should apply to write a script!! Hearing Walter Gabriel I was reminded of the fondness I had for this wacky character although he does sound rather over the top in 2020!
ReplyDeleteOh, and Basia, I echo your "good luck" to Elton-Johnny & Little Lord Freddie! I have a feeling that Hannah is not the most relaxing housemate in the world....
ReplyDeleteFurther to acting I listened to the omnibus of 24 Kildare Avenue having heard just bits of it previously. Our Jim can’t half act! The character of Joe was so completely different to Jim and he kept up the accent faultlessly throughout.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, Ev. I thought he was brilliant and Katie Hims is such a clever writer.
DeleteKate....42! Who in their right mind wants to start with a baby again at 42. She’s made a balls up of her previous 3. Does the woman never learn!!!! 🤦♀️
ReplyDeleteI think that's actually one of the reasons I might actually "like" her! The fact that she hasn't learnt. Sometimes we just don't! Maybe that serves to make her more human than some of the others in Ambridge? I dunno! Shut up Gary....😵
DeleteHow lovely to see ‘our Leonard’ in Last Tango in Halifax tonight! Alan’s old school friend whom Celia obviously does not approve of!
ReplyDeletePaul Copley really is one of my favourite actors. It was lovely to see him again, as well as listening to him in TA.
PtbY - I think that Kate, at age 42 is precisely about a woman who ..........
ReplyDeleteNever learns ......
However I do very much agree that the actress who is Kate is very good indeed.
MrsP - snap!!! Same sentiment, same time...
DeleteI agree that the actress who plays Kate does a very good job. Tonight's episode revealed a different side to her character - considerate, thoughtful, self aware. Didn't sound like Kate at all. Maybe she's actually maturing.
ReplyDeleteCongrats on all your achievements Gary. I'd like to view your piece, although I don't know The Simpsons that well.
Lynda - trying hard not to create a personality cult, which is what she's been doing forever!
ReplyDeleteKate - “I am a mother, it’s in my essence”.
ReplyDeleteOh yes? OK when they are cuddly little babies, but not when they become inconvenient to your life style. Easier just to abandon them to their fathers to bring up.
Kate is totally self-delusional! "I am a good mother," she said!
ReplyDeleteIt is all about her yet again. She obviously enjoys the extra attention she gets when pregnant and newly delivered of her baby, then not so much. Sadly there are such people in real life.
I think the complaints about characters reversal is justified on the whole. Take 'Brian' for example. I remember when he joined and met Jennifer in 1975. He was kind, urbane, exceedingly rich, polite and charming. He was not the sort of character, recently portrayed, as the 'wide boy' shady dealer and in the 1970/80s he most certainly did not grubby money because of his financial situation.
I do remember Uncle Tom's dog Judy but that's the only one that has stuck!
As Pierre says opinions may not have been recorded on the cards but certainly facts were and there is no excuse for ignoring or forgetting the 'facts.' But Keri Davis owned up they do make mistakes as with the third bedroom at Blossom Hill Cottage!
It is not good scriptwriting to change facts/characters to suit the plot. In fact extremely poor, lazy writing and certainly not very professional and that has what annoyed me for the past five or six years. If a job is worth doing .....and so on!
I agree with Lanjan. I think Paul Broderick is one of the weaker scriptwriters but look forward to this week's Keri Davis scripts.
BTW I have just bought Carole Boyde's book, (pub 1996) supposedly an official Archers publication, and Keri Davis and Vanessa Whitburn are credited as having input, so I am hoping to remind myself or learn of, other history I missed when living abroad and/or putting little children to bed at 7.00pm!
Some facts are more important than others. Forgetting Oliver had a wifebefore Caroline would be a serious blunder. The fact that BH Cottage now has 3 bedrooms when previously it had 2, presumably having had one built in the interim, is supremely unimportant and I never understood why listeners made so much of it. This is fiction not docudrama, and what I want from the scriptwriters is a good plot, well-written. The props and scenery don’t matter.
DeleteKate, “I’m a drama magnet” is the most solipsistic, lacking in self awareness, individual created in TA, at least since I’ve been listening.
ReplyDeleteHer preoccupation with her self and her sense of reality to the outside world are a reflection of someone with an empty life. But that would fit in with perception of herself as being born to have babies, She is in a stratosphere occupied by only the greatest, she is the goddess Earth Mother.
Of course all her indulgence with her own world could be a symptom of the opposite of a detachment and loneliness and all the psychobabble is a learned cover.
What a load of bullocks.
✓✓✓ In similar vein, Stasia, I have plenty of sympathy for Johnny, going bald at only 21, none at all for Kate's self aggrandising histrionics over a missed period or two.
DeleteAnd no understanding apparently that the missed periods might be the beginning of a peri menopause. It simply hasn't occurred to her.
DeleteShe needs to talk with her mother perhaps.
Which reminds me that we have not now heard from Jennifer or Brian for what seems like months.
Brian has made an occasional appearance, last time over the rewilding contract, but Jennifer not for a very long time. Perhaps the actress is taking a break. There hasn’t been any news on their move.
DeleteGood point Mrs P.
DeleteAre the owners of their rented property at Willow Farm ever coming back?
Are Jenny & Brian still looking for a property to buy?
Is Jenny still running her agony aunt column?
What is Brian’s position at Borchester Land these days - if he still has one?
Who actually still lives with them in the Cottage - just Ruairi in the school hols?
When did Jenny last host a dinner party?
All essential things we should know! 😉
Gosh Archerphile. You’re not asking for much, are you?
DeleteI agree about Jennifer + Brian and Willow Cottage. This was an interimn solution, whilst the contamination scandal went on. I am surprised that Jennifer still seems content there.
DeleteI do wonder about their belongings, still stored in a barn for 2 winters now.
I expect that in 6 weeks time, I will be posting - Jenny + Brian are doing my head in.
Totally agree AP - just checking if you had posted here today as no entry on the other blog. Concerned for a moment there!
DeleteTomorrow is the start of lent. How will the S/Ws cope with all and sundry in Ambridge giving each other kind, positive comments.
ReplyDeleteLovely hat Jonny, have you got any hair underneath?
Oh, dear me I’ve just cancelled that out. So I don’t have to put any money in the jar, oh.
Isn't it Wednesday?
DeleteTomorrow is Shrove Tuesday, aka "Pancake Day". I wonder what The Bull have planned.
There is to be the usual pancake night tomorrow I believe.
DeleteTomorrow is my last day for eating biscuits, chocolate and drinking alcohol until Easter Sunday.
ReplyDeleteWednesday is the start of kind ,positive comments!
Stasia please remind me.
Do I put money in the jar if someone says something kind and positive to me or if I say something kind and positive to him or her?
Good for you LJ. 👏👏
DeleteI so admire all, who actually give things up for Lent.
I don't, as I am a non believer.
However, I totally support all those who do.
I also respect "ramadan", when food + water, is given up by many.
I respect all beliefs.
Wrong Blog. 😭😭
ReplyDeleteLanjan. My understanding of the Lenten appeal is, when you give someone a compliment they are meant to pay up.
ReplyDeleteSo if i say, Lanjan I do admire your new silk scarf, you look just like Audrey Hepburn. You pay up. St. Stephen’s needs the money.😅
Does it work the other way, Stasia ? I mean, say you or Lanjan told me I looked total rubbish draped in a head scarf, you would have to pay up 😎
Delete.....& so hurt I'd be, that I'd post on the wrong blog, just as I've done above, so would have to pay for a whole new pew in St Stephen's 😘
DeleteIs there a chance that Elton-Johnny's recent collapse in confidence about his onset of baldiness could be down to that Hannah creature? Maybe she's got bored of biting off pig tails & has started taunting him?
ReplyDeleteOuch!🐷🏋🏼♂️
Deletecarolyn. Giving negative comments defeats the objective of Shula’s campaign to be being kind to each other.
ReplyDeleteI would only ever praise your stunning good looks and linguistic skills.
During lent at least.
Your mission during Lent, should you wish to take it, is to give each Ambridge resident a kind word. It is on your hatted head to gets lots of money for St Stephen’s. Your reward will be the St Shula gift of the laying on of hands. On your shoulders if you permit.
Good luck.
I shall be monitoring your comments.
Ok. Misjudged Hannah is a confident, modern woman, not intimidated by man, woman or beast. Gavin is a well meaning man, but damaged by his parents'acrimonious divorce, having difficulty in forming lasting relationships now, in his thirties.
Deletecan't keep this up, Stasia....it's painful)
Kate is a misunderstood woman of great sensitivity & yearning spirituality who also likes regular servicing. Oh, no, the last bit's off colour, isn't it. I can't do this, Stasia !
Oh I like it Stasia.I am up for it .
ReplyDeleteHowever my money won’t be going to St Stephen’s but to Barnardo’s Young Carers in Liverpool if that is all right by you.
Of course I may get no compliments during Lent but if someone gives me one, not only on the blog ,I promise I will donate!
Also I will make a minimum donation even if I get no compliments at all.
Can’t say fairer than that.
Also we should change blogs for the Lenten Appeal shouldn’t we?
We won’t start until Wednesday though and although Miriam has said she admires me for giving up things I like for Lent ,I haven’t done it yet.and I don’t do it for the right reasons.
I think it is a good idea for 40 days to try and eat and drink more sensibly and really to see if I have got the will power to do so.
(If Lent were later in the year I would be laughing.
My Old Age Pension should go up then by 25p per week.!
Got a letter telling me that today!
How lucky you are that you are at least getting an increase. I am still waiting for my pension, as I am a Waspi!
DeleteSome of us are struggling, having given up work and, like me, are single. Life is getting harder and it is not as expected. Enjoy your extra payment, as my income is going down.
This is the wrong board I know, but I am keeping my home warm. I am cutting costs, re food. I am a good cook + can utilise cheaper food items which are still nutricious. These are beans, lentils, veg. liver, belly pork etc.
DeleteIt is hard.
Because some of us here are older, & therefore drew our pensions at a younger age than you can, Miriam, doesn't mean we all shop at Harrods & Fortnums !! I suspect most of us are mindful of the grocery bill, cheaper cuts of meat, less meat, actually, than in the past, if not outright vegetarian, & generally more health, as well as purse, conscious.
DeleteI will try not to spend the increase all at once.
DeleteCarolyn. 6.11pm
ReplyDeleteAs Miriam said Lent doesn’t start until Wednesday so don’t panic, yet.
You are a strong woman, St Shula is relying on your words.
Have they timed it with today's conviction in the US?
ReplyDeleteConfused ,Stasia.
ReplyDeleteIf and when Carolyn says lovely things about Ambridge residents.
how is she going to get the money from them?
I still think we are going to have to say nice things about each other on the blog.
Or
If we say nice things about Ambridge residents,we are going to have to pay their Lenten donation for them.
Over to you,Stasia.
What do we do?
,
I can't be nice about Gavin, Kate & Hannah AGAIN, & tonight wasn't hard, was it - Alistair, Ruth, Jim, Jazzer all lovely denizens of Ambridge ! As for Tracy & new BF, Roman - a match made in heaven. The born performer fallen on hard times, the country girl with a ropey past, saved by the local benefactor. Oliver Stirling, now the support & muse of said thespian.
DeleteSeriously, it was better listening tonight than it's been in a while, centred round the B@ Ambridge, as it has been.
DeleteI am excitedly waiting for early May when my extra 25p per week will start to be paid. (15p per week when the tax man adjusts my occupational pension taking the huge rise into account)
ReplyDeleteYou and I are going to be the big spenders Pierre .
DeleteI like Lent and see it as a test of character of oneself and not a roundabout way giving to charity; so it doesn't matter whether you are a believer in any particular faith or not.
DeleteI always try to give up chocolate and have only succeeded a few times, none of which have been during the past ten years.
The same goes for Ramadan ( i.e.a test of character). There is no way I could get up at
4 a.m, eat a hearty breakfast, return to bed, get up again then eat or drink nothing for the next twelve or more hours (depending on the time of year.)
So I find this saying nice things in Ambridge for Lent a tad strange but can see the message it is promoting.
However I think Shula's scheme and previous ones over the past few years which raises money for St Stephen's is rather missing the purpose of Lent!
BTW my £20 per month increase has already been attacked with a £5 per month increase in Council Tax!
Sorry not to join in all this Lent chat about giving things up and bring nice.
ReplyDeleteObviously Lent is not on my wavelength so I shan’t be giving things up - but I might try not to be critical of TA for a few weeks and enjoy the programmes as they are acted and presented
(As I always used to do, before joining the old BBC blogs and learning to analyse and critique each episode)
I enjoyed Tracey and Roman's chat. They seem so well suited as Carolyn said. Good development for Jim and now his former tormentor can be outed.
ReplyDeleteHappy Pancake Day tomorrow to all.
I think this historic abuse story should have been wrapped up by now. What’s the trio”s motive for outing a dead man? Sounds more like revenge to me, than a way of helping Michael. To make an abuse story truly effective, the Editor should have gone for an Archer core character, not a peripheral like Jim, and made him the abuser, not a someone who is just a far away name. Think how much more impact it would have had on us if it had been Tony, for example.
ReplyDeleteCould you clarify please, Maryellen? Are you saying that Jim, or Tony as an example of a core character, should have been cast as the abuser rather than the victim ? Also,
Deleteare you proposing Tony-or-similar as the victim ?
Bear with me if the meaning is obvious to everyone else.
I agree 100% with the first part of your post ,Maryellen but disagree 100% with the second part.
ReplyDeleteLanJan - I think your reaction illustrates the point I was making.
DeleteIf it had been Tony, David, Brian or any other of our established male characters, Maryellen, I should have finished with TA forever.
ReplyDeleteI think the only way they could run this story was because the perpetrator was an unknown character.
There would have been a mass exodus of listeners otherwise.
There has been talk about personality changes but that would have been total annihilation of a character known to listeners for years!
(And I doubt very much if any of the actors concerned would have agreed to continue with their part)
No doubt this man is guilty because of Jim and Michael’s testimony but after a person dies in general speak they can’t defend themselves. I think the story just as effective with Jim the victim. We know him well enough.
ReplyDeleteI don’t see Jim as a peripheral character, his storyline has been a dominant factor for some months now, although he was most likely to be chosen to carry this issue because we needed an explanation for his curmudgeonly personality and relationship difficulties with his children.
ReplyDeleteSo now we know, next step he will mull this latest news over and go to the police.
Shula’s lent appeal is rubbish twaddle and impossible to get people to pay up. Anyhow it is true that in Ambridge and there are some residents who are definitely not nice to others.
Carolyn has demonstrated that so well in her attempt to change Natasha’s and Gavin’s personalities.
So it is to the other blog We go should we want to talk about Lent.
It was good fun whilst it lasted.
Just like Roman and Tracy.
Your first paragraph rings true with me, Stasia. Regardless of my uncertainty about Maryellen's meaning ( 4.57 + 9.11 am), I took the objective of this SL was to explore the long term effect on the victim of childhood abuse. The purpose was to show
Deleteboth how it impacted on their adult character & how they react, cope, or fail to cope when the historic abuse is abruptly resurrected. So the focus is not on the abuser & their dark psychology.
( PS. Stasia, it was Hannah, not Natasha, I was, tongue in cheek, trying to defend. I rather like Natasha, a contrast to her in law family)
I think I agree with maryellen on this one. It was all very "neat" as a storyline I think - all a bit "convenient". No fallout to be heard really, other than Jim occasionally. I wouldn't be at all surprised if maryellen's scenario was discussed by the scriptwriters but then they bottled out of it.
ReplyDeleteI think it all harks back to the outing of JS after his death, although I wouldn't want HJ's grave to be desecrated. There was a woman on WH yesterday who in the aftermath went to report her abuser to the police after 37 years, he was still alive and was jailed for a few years and put on a register. They have illustrated the feelings of the victims. Having said all this, I'd prefer it not to go on for too long. As I said, good timing with the HW's conviction yesterday, was it coincidental?
ReplyDeleteThe point I was making (which, thankfully, Gary got if no one else) is that we were given sanitised and partial story, limited to a victim on the periphery of the Archer clan, and an abuser who was simply a faraway name to us, with a nod to the knock on effects on the victim’s son.
ReplyDeleteTo give us the full picture, and allow us to experience, albeit second-hand, the sickening horror that was so well expressed in Janice’s real lifesyory (apologies if I’ve got the wrong blogger), it should have been a perpetrator who we knew well, eg. Tony, and the effects on his wife and abused children. The point was made (as with the Rob and Helen) story, that the abuser is often an individual that no one would suspect from their knowledge of that individual.
The outrage in the posts above, at the very idea of Tony being a perpetrator let alone the actuality, bears out my argument that this approach would have achieved a more realistic experience for listeners - plus, hopefully greater understanding,, extending to the perpetrator too. The current editor has ducked out of that with Harold Jayston’s death.
Maybe some listeners would have given up, as several said they would during the Rob and Helen story. So, Gary suggests, it would have taken some editorial courage. I imagine any truly professional actor would have just got on with the job.
Well, that’s my point of view which of course I’m entitled to express, though absolutely no one is obliged to read it!
.
I have most certainly read your above post Maryellen and I can see your point about the impact such a story would have had and the dramatic effect it would have had.
DeleteHowever, as an elderly, dyed in the wool Archers listener it would have been a step too far for my sensibilities I’m afraid.
I listen to TA for entertainment and to immerse myself in the surroundings I know and love and the characters I enjoy and in whom I believe.
I do not listen, to TA, at my time of life, to be educated about some of the horrendous things that can happen in society these days. I know that many people felt the Rob/Helen saga did a lot of good and brought the subject of coercion to the attention of many who were, perhaps, unaware.
But I felt then, and feel again now, that if I want to be informed about such subjects I would rather watch a serious documentary or read up about it in intellectual reports than have it inserted into my daily visit to Ambridge.
You may feel that this is akin to sticking my head in the sand or putting fingers in my ears and going ‘la la la’!
The Archers is my much loved safe place to retire to at night not a place to be ‘educated’
You are perfectly entitled to your thoughts and opinions as I, I hope you will agree, am I 😃
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteTony, Brian et al have such long & detailed histories, that fingering them as either abusers or abused at this stage would be ludicrously implausible. Aspects of their family lives have dysfunctional elements - what family doesn't, quite honestly - but nothing that hints at such an SL. The writers can,'t rewrite the past !
DeleteThe Titchener/Helen saga was cleverly done, we soon picked up he wasn't to be trusted, particularly from when we heard the first conversation with his wife, Jess, yet, at the same time, it was easy to see how he could fool.others.
We don't need to know Jayston's point of view, except that, like Titchener, he fooled many people, in fact more successfully, as his cover lasted his entire life.
It's Jim's story, & convincing in that regard, as it has unfolded
Exploring a perpetrator's sickness is another story, only done very sketchily in the Titchener case, - probably better in a certain different sort of drama - if indeed dramatically workable, at all. After all, do we really know why Iago is the way he is, why Edmund ?
Archerphile - don’t worry, I’m sure the current editor will keep Ambridge a safe haven for you!😀
DeleteCarolyn - your questions suggest a way of thinking so opposite to mine that I can’t, -and suspect they were rhetorical anyway.
DeleteShould be can’t answer them...
DeleteI think the trouble is that these storylines are introduced and then the writers seem to want to trump the last one with an even more horrendous one! This is most obvious in TV soaps. I gave up Corrie when Katie killed her father! The awfulness of child abuse was IMO perfectly expressed in Jim’s reaction and the aftermath of coming face to face with his abuser. It explained a lot about the buttoned up Jim and the lasting effects of what had happened to him. I don’t think we need to know the effects on the abuser’s family as well. That is for another program.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I am concerned, the Jim story-line has run its course. I think that Jim wanted to talk to Michael, to affirm it is now over and not to dwell on it.
ReplyDeleteI am liking that Jim is wanting to meets Fiona's partner. This to me, shows he is moving in a different direction, along with the extension.
Archerphile 3.01pm.
ReplyDeleteI’m in agreement with you. There are enough programmes etc that educate on the harshness of life. I , too, like the archers for some gentle entertainment.
From my experience being able to convey “the sickening horror “ that is child abuse can have a detrimental effect on both the actors and the listeners.
ReplyDeleteFor me the S/w’s have done a great job in reminding us that abuse is an ‘age old’, extremely nasty exercise of power over a vulnerable individual. The character of Jim like many, has indicated that older people will carry their abuse experiences through their own developmental and social changes. Leaving some with differing coping mechanisms. Whether consciously or not those who have been abused will carry those feelings of vulnerability throughout their lives and like Jim into old age. Some take to drink, drugs, violence or develop a carapace that leaves forming relations difficult.
Jim imo fitted the concept of vulnerability.
carolyn 9.31am
ReplyDeleteMy apologies, Nasherbasher is who I meant, but I always call her Hannah. Maybe I perceive both characters to be similar, both hard wired but different in how they express themselves.
Can you imagine what they would create if they formed a business partnership.
Oh, I wouldn't have listened to some horrific long drawn out child abuse storyline either! I was one of the people who stopped listening for a while during the height of the Helen & Rob days.
ReplyDeleteI was just agreeing with maryellen that if the scriptwriters truly had wanted to investigate & highlight the many ways in which the terrifying effects of child abuse ripple throughout the community they would have made the perpetrator someone we knew & didn't suspect in any way. But they didn't want to really do that I think - they just wanted a nice, quick non-messy end to an "issue" with which they could pretend they were "serious drama". Same as they seemingly have done with Elizabeth's depression &
Will's suicidal breakdown. Covered, done, next!
I was thinking the other day that Elizabeth got over her depression quickly. Just a few visits to a counsellor and she was bouncing back. Real life certainly isn’t like that!
DeleteI fail to see why the editor thought it is necessary to continue with Jim's storyline after he had returned to Ambridge having found a sort of 'closure' in attending the funeral and finding out he was not the only victim.
ReplyDeleteAs for the comment
"achieved a more realistic experience for listeners - plus, hopefully greater understanding extending to the perpetrator too." maryellen 2.11.
TA became horribly "realistic" during the Rob and Helen s/l when we ended up hearing Helen being raped, which must have brought back or resurrected terrible memories for victims of sexual abuse so why would anyone would want to understand why a sick, dirty, grubby man wants to sexually abuse a child?
As others have said we get enough of that sort of 'entertainment' in other books, films, drama, documentaries and investigative programmes broadcast on Radio 4.
Thing is it is not even done very well by the S/Ws!
There is absolutely no point in either Jim or Michael going to the police as a dead man cannot be prosecuted.
Well, maybe that “sick, dirty, grubby man” was permanently damaged by sexual and physical abuse in his own childhood, through no fault of his own. The French proverb, To know all is to forgive all, is clearly not as simple and easy as it sounds, but understanding is at least halfway to forgiveness and a great deal better than blind condemnation. As for the Rob/Helen story, women in a similar position to Helen said how much it had helped them, some on the BBC blog. I don’t recall any saying the opposite. Perhaps they switched off.
DeleteHas anybody on the programme thought about the effect the abuse storyline has had on the people who were abused as children?
ReplyDeleteSome may as you say,Stasia might take to drink and drugs but others have successfully put it behind them although in fairness they might not have had the constant abuse that Jim and Michael had .
I do not watch East Enders and quite honestly I can’t understand why anybody would when I see the trailers for the programme.
I presume the programme gets a good audience.
Is that why the Archers editor likes to have storylines like this?
I expect so.
If the script writers had gone along with the idea that Maryellen suggests then it would definitely be the end of the programme for me.
P tbY I agree with what you say.5:05pm
.
I was totally emersed in the Helen + Rob S/L with its final outcome (along where + how Helen gave birth to Jack).
ReplyDeleteTo me the Jim S/L is now over.
PS. I would love it, if Rob re-appeared to try and see Gideon.
Lanjan, You're right, the same goes for women who went through similar experiences as Helen and said they couldn't listen.
ReplyDeleteLike you I look to the Archers for entertainment, there's life and the news for the rest.
It looks like Jim's story is wrapped now.
ReplyDeleteAlso, The B@Ambridge it is.
Is there an indication that Oliver and Tracy might get up close and personal?
I have never really liked Shula and my feelings have not changed, even slightly.
ReplyDeleteThis is now, to do with her ordination S/L + her "holier than thou" attititude. I admire her beliefs though, but I find her so very irritating.
I am surprised that The Stables, is still a viable + a profitable business.
I predict problems.
Totally agree with Lanjan and PtbY. Think of the victims who successfully put things behind them and lived a 'comfortable' and perhaps successful life and then have to think,
ReplyDelete" Not again!"
There are some who don't need to be reminded every time someone wants to air an 'issue!'
They are not obliged to listen - we can all switch off!!
DeleteEntertainment or not.
ReplyDeleteEducation or not.
Personally I see no difference in mixing these two elements. Although I can see that for many, perhaps most, entertainment includes an element of the suspension of reality.
As a person incapable of suspending reality in most aspects of life, mixing these two elements comes naturally to me.
I feel that Jims story thus far has been well done up to a point.
I agree with ME and GG that it has been air brushed and I would be quite content if it had been more deeply explored in TA.
I disagree with the point of view that insists that listeners should not be subjected to painful issues on the grounds that it might bring back painful memories of their own similar experiences.
Life is real. We do not live in Disneyland. TA if not any longer an everyday story of country folk is still about everyday life, warts and all.
I do not believe that anyone should be protected from any problem that exists in society. Being aware of such difficulties is the price we pay for being a civilised society.
And burying our heads in the sand is a dereliction of duty to society IMO even if it hurts us, as individuals.
I worked for many years on women's help lines as a counsellor. I have horrific tales of abuse in my head as a result. As previously said, by Carolyn I think, ( perhaps Stasia) child and female abuse is age old. Do any individuals feelings trump society's need to break down the silent barriers that prevent the truth being told ? I do not believe so.
This very day David Steele has resigned from The Lords as a result of being criticised for his failure to deal appropriately, at the time, with the known behaviour of a fellow politician. They were different times. The past is another country.
We deal with the truth now as far as is possible, at this time. And in due course this time now will be viewed as not good enough, as, one hopes, further development will be made.
You make a perfectly valid point MrsP but surely it's a matter of context and balance. As GG mentions, Elizabeth's depression, Will's suicidal breakdown and now historical child abuse are skimmed over, but what is the alternative? All these very serious story lines can't always be covered in real time like the Helen and Rob story whenever an important 'issue' comes along. It is bound to be stylised to a certain extent. TA is only 13 minutes long and the confines of that slot are going to make it difficult to do justice to an in-depth portrayal of such significant subjects along with 'the every day story'....…. etc..........not impossible, but it would no longer be The Archers.
ReplyDeleteI agree BB, not all ' issues ' can, or should be explored in depth.
DeleteAnd as I said in my earlier post, I am content ( up to a point ) with what has been presented. TA could have gone further, but with an apparent end tonight, enough has been explored without going into any gory detail.
As you say, with thirteen minutes six days a week, unless a time line similar to the Rob and Helen saga is taken, then dealing with such issues as peripheral must suffice.
I don't think any of us want to become as engaged as many of us did with RandH more than once in a few years, and certainly not with every subject that might be in the current headlines.
I do also agree that such subjects are often presented in the form of documentaries, however I also feel very strongly that the same subjects do have a place in our Archers, it being ' an everyday story ......... ' pretending that Ambridge is some village in a fairy story does not sit well with me.
Perhaps I favour the brothers Grimm over Walt Disney.
Yes, maybe you’re right BB. After a major storyline actors like Elizabeth and Will take a break and when I think about it during that time which is not in real time their problems could be sorted. It must be quite satisfying being in TA. Maybe the Roy actor has plenty of time to be landlord of his pub in the New Forest between times! We have not heard him lately!
ReplyDeleteWell, it seems whichever view each of us takes over Jim’s story , it has come to a conclusion this evening.
ReplyDeleteI especially liked the way Jim thanked Alistair and Jazzer for helping him come to terms with his past. The three of them have formed a close bond and that is to be admired and celebrated.
So, onwards and upwards to the next storyline. I wonder whom it will involve this time. Perhaps someone we have not heard from for a while?
I agree that Jim's story has come to a conclusion tonight. I think it was well handled and has a positive outcome as Jim is now at peace with his past. I also liked the way Jim thanked Alistair and Jazzer for their support and understanding. I would not have enjoyed hearing a well known character outed as the abuser and do not think it would be necessary in order to make a point.
ReplyDeleteLet's move on to new S/Ls with characters we don't hear from - Usha, Alan, Roy and others.
I think the treatment of Jim's story line was about right. It was treated seriously and extended over a sufficiently long time for us to see its impact. It would be too demanding and upsetting for the subsequent investigations to take place in Ambridge (and even more so for the perpetrator to be a village resident).
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do think that Elizabeth's depression has been treated superficially, as has Will's threatened suicide. Jim's anguish, and the working through of his emotions with the help of Alistair and Jazzer, has been convincing. Elizabeth's "one bound and she's free" hasn't.
✔️✔️
ReplyDeleteGood for you Jim ⭐️ (a character that has been allowed to change for the better for once)
ReplyDeleteFamily and support from a good friend helped Jim through his ordeal and in his turn he has been able to help others and by doing so can now “feel and show emotions” once again!
So a new sign for the “B” / The Bull! I agree with Oliver as it had only just been erected how could Lilian claim it alone had packed out the pub and upped the takings🙄 Pancake night has always been popular as have the other examples she cited.
“B”woman herself 😡
Can Jim now take a break from our air waves or will he continue to be the dotty professor who engages in schoolboy rivalry with Robert Snell and plays merry pranks ion the village bobby?
ReplyDeleteOliver- when in doubt,say nowt .
ReplyDeleteYou won’t be thanked for interfering.
Re my previous comment
ReplyDeleteOf course he will and that will be the end of Roman but then Tracy and Oliver will get together and it all be lovely .- rather like that programme which was .on a few decades ago.
It was set in Pinner.
Starred Anton - Rogers? someone as an older man who met a younger woman.
Something like Spring and Autumn
I think the theme tune was Autumn leaves by Nat King Cole so where are you .our Autumnleaves?
Do you know what I am talking about?
May to December?
DeleteI think the younger female was Imelda Staunton? or maybe I'm muddling it up with another programme where she was a young teacher who dated a very recent pupil of hers and got pregnant. They broke up and she never told him he was a father.
DeleteDon't think such a storyline would be permitted nowadays!
I loved Anton Rogers ever since I watched him as the Scarlet Pimpernel in a BBC Sunday teatime classic serialisation in the 70s.
People on fb are commenting on Shula's snobby attitude towards the name Roman. I have met two Romans, one adult and one who was in my Cub pack a couple of years ago. His family was from Eastern Europe but the adult was definitely English. I thought it a bit rich of Shula when her name stemmed from babies' building b;ocks being tossed onto the floor!
Wasn’t the woman a redhead. I’m thinking perhaps Angharad Rees, but probably wrong.
DeleteNo, got it wrong! Just looked it up and Anton’s younger wife was played but Eve Mattheson (who was a redhead!)
DeleteI obviously had got muddled!
DeleteAs an actor Roman would make a wonderful Concierge 💁♂️ meeting and greeting new guests, telling them ancient stories about the residents of Ambridge in the past.
ReplyDeleteWhat to see and do in and around Borchester.
Maybe he wasn’t being intimate with the woman but knew Oliver was watching and is trying to impress.
Oliver is certainly an old fashioned fuddy, daddy but he should confide in and listen to Shula, she’s not a vicar, yet!
Lanjan has the right of if ' when in doubt, say nowt'. Tracy's been round the block, she can look after herself.
ReplyDeleteDon't care for a May to December thing between her & Oliver, though.......hey, how about Shula & Oliver ? Or is that verging on the incestuous, given the Caroline connection?!
Back to the debate about TA content, I think the Jim story was well done, not because it was a nod to current issues, but using them nevertheless as a way of opening out his character convincingly, & showing us what was behind the cliche of self important old 'prof.' Much harder when he was a boy to tell & be taken seriously, & it all rang true. I don't think it was all tidied up too quickly, rather staged carefully. each event since the ill fated 80th marking a further step in his self awareness & rehabitation.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, NOT so with Will ! It's like they got bored with the gun drama etc. & let him suddenly recover both sanity & a decent relationship with his brother. Elizabeth, not so bad, it was an emergency, & both the counselling & Freddie's release helped her over the worst. Plenty of scope for another collapse there - I can hardly wait ( not...) !
....rehabilitation.
DeleteLanJan - mobilise the Wordless Shruggers NOW! (The Club you formed to protest against banal storylines.) Take swift action or Oliver is going to look like a silly old fool!
ReplyDeletecarolyn 11.16am. 👍👏
ReplyDeleteI was trying to move us on. I’m waiting for the next ‘issue’.
DeleteI don’t think Oliver and Tracy would make a good couple. She’s a bit too rough & ready for him and I mean that kindly. Maybe Oliver having had a great love match with Caroline will be better to go forward without a partner. Sometimes you can just never find another partner having lost your soulmate.
ReplyDeleteI can confirm that.
DeleteEv, I agree, but they may try it anyway. It could be that Tracy finds out and ends up confiding in Oliver, whatever. She is a single mother to two teenagers, whatever happened to their father. Her father also lives with them, so she's looking after him too, yet she portrayed Oliver as her saviour which I found a bit much.
ReplyDeleteAlso agree, Ev. I don't think Oliver is on the lookout for a partner anyway; possibly, as time goes on, he may find a similar compatible friend, as Jill has done.
DeleteHe's got a paternal kind of attitude to Tracy - affectionate & protective.
Thanks Gary .
ReplyDeleteYes it was “May to December “ and it wasn’t Autumn leaves that was the signature tune it was From May to December”
Oh it’s a long long time etc.
We Wordless shruggers are going to have to wordlessly shrug because the scriptwriters won’t listen to us.
They will do as I have suggested they will. ie have a sort of romance between Tracy and Oliver.
He will be appalled when he finds out how Tracy lives.
It will all end in tears
However
There is help......
If you have been affected by anything.........
The song's title is "September Song" (music by Kurt Weill).
DeleteWhat you actually mean ,Ev is that Tracy who is a breath of air sometimes ,is downright common!
ReplyDeleteMy worry is that Oliver is lonely and mistakes loneliness for love.
If they do get together he will have to have a pre nup.
A new theme.
Pre nups
Tom and Natasha -too late or did they do it?
Kirsty and Phillip.
“May to December” Lesley Dunlop (who now plays Brenda in Emmerdale) which I stopped watching about 6 mths ago, but you can still see it is her and of course with Anton Rogers.
ReplyDeleteI can't see Tracy + Oliver as a couple.
ReplyDeleteI do, though, see them as an unusual couple of close friends, who enjoy being with each other and having a laugh.
This is similar, in a way, to Jill + Leonard, or even Jim + Jazzer.
A close friendship bond, which is a non-sexual relationship, can be rewarding, without any hassle or expectations.
They can be:-
Delete"Just Good Friends".
Just like Jazzer and Jim. Unlikely friends. The Odd Couples.
DeleteLJ mentioned Natasha + Tom.
ReplyDeleteI am still wondering how her credit card bills are doing,
and how she is affording to try to move her business to Ambridge.
My other thought is, - will Natasha produce (unexpectantly) the next junior Archer?
That will upset her plans + ambitions.
I am still confused about the BridgeFresh App, or whatever it is called. Where are they getting the produce from, and who is/arw delivering it in what vehicles.
DeleteThis is a S/L which
has gone very quiet.
How are they manageing it, and are they making a profit?
I never appreciated you as a daughter-in-law - who left my son and went in search of God.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise I liked Bob Dylan during the ceremony.
I had to switch TA off tonight. I expect some will like the sentimentality of the naming ceremony but it wasn’t for me. Will we have to suffer worship at the shrine of Xander in perpetuity? He may turn out to be a wild teenager after a spoilt childhood and wonder how A and I will cope with that? Sorry if others disagree but have never been comfortable with this setup!
ReplyDeleteTotally understandable Ev. I preferred Phoebe's naming ceremony on Lakely Hill.
DeleteYou missed Bob Dylan but he's separate from the Archers, so you can listen but maybe you're not a fan.
The best parts for me tonight were the scenes between Jim & Shula, Tracy & Shula, oh, & Brian's evident lack of enthusiasm for his daughter's 'event' ! Just let the rest of it wash over me, no need to pay attention....
ReplyDeleteDo hope that people gave their wishes for the boy some considered thought, so ithey'll mean something when he's 14 or so, not just bland stuff or kate nonsense that he'll want to shred.
Did you you mean Helen and Tracy? For all her 'holiness' I think nothing of Shula, as above.
DeleteYes, sorry, did mean Helen ! So unusual to hear her paying attention to someone's problems, &, what's more, going back to continue the conversation with Tracy !
DeleteAbsolutely delighted that the song chosen was Bob Dylan 's "Forever Young." It has the most beautiful lyrics.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course Bob Dylan is the second god I worship so enjoyed the episode tonight. 😁
I liked this episode because it showed everyone at their best, Xander included. No one shouted. I don’t think it was overly sentimental - Brian was used to counteract any risk of that. No one shouted and everyone was sincere in their good wishes for the baby. Adam and Ian are doing a grand job now and there’s no reason to think they won’t continue to do so.
ReplyDeleteAnd, dare I say it, "well done Kate".
ReplyDeleteI found the ceremony a bit sugary but (for me) far more suitable than a traditional christening with all that renouncing of evil or whatever goes on.
ReplyDeleteMy most enjoyable conversation tonight was between Jim and Shula. He really has transformed from the bitter, critical old curmudgeon he was when he first arrived in Ambridge. And it’s lovely to hear him at peace and able to admit how horrid he was to his daughter in law at first and now to appreciate all she has done for him.
I agree Archerphile about the conversation between Jim and Shula. They can be good friends to each other. It was good to hear Brian who's been missing for quite a while.
ReplyDeletePlease spare us a romance between Oliver and Tracy. I don't think I can listen to that.
I like Maryellen quite enjoyed this evenings episode.
ReplyDeleteAll involved sounded normal, nobody got drunk, Kate was not hysterical and even said as little as possible about the veterinary boyfriend, and the ceremony itself did not sound at all strange.
Jim and Shula genuinely liking and appreciating each each as well as Helen being considerate towards Tracey, and Tracey herself sounding ever more normal.
A good episode.
Maryellen and Mrs P, I concur with your comments. It was good to hear Kate focusing on others - is she going to turn a corner?
ReplyDeleteI am with those who think Shula and Oliver have more in common but agree they might not be looking for love in that way. Shula seems a lot calmer now she’s controlling her destiny independently.
Shula broke her vows to her husband and once she's ordained she'll be able to marry people. I'm not particularly religious, I just think she's a hypocrite.
ReplyDeleteWell, I laughed out loud during most of this episode, especially when Brian spat out his ridiculous words. Obviously written by Kate,
ReplyDeleteIan, Adam and child all colour coordinated, the mind boggles, were they all wearing the same onesie, made by the local tailor?
High camp or what!
So that’s Kate’s rational for abandoning her children, she is more concerned about the ethereal aspects of their spirits and souls. Don’t need to worry about real human beings.
Tracy, if you are looking for advice please don’t ask Helen. As she said, Rob was a big mistake. What she should have let you know was that Lee’s girls didn’t think much of her Chocolate flower.
✔✔👍 I pictured the babygro suit sometimes worn by Matt Lucas!!! 😁
DeleteI have a vision of Adam and Ian in a giant babygro after your onesie comment! I could never line up the poppers so hope they are a bit more coordinated!!😂
ReplyDelete😂🤣😂
DeleteEspecially when nature calls😕😕😕😕
DeleteI thought the colour coordination was a nice touch - rather like the colour coordination you get at weddings. What amuses me are the photos of proud dad and his weeks-old son, both wearing the football strip of the team dad supports! However, as far as we know, they don’t play football in Borsetshire.
DeleteWell I missed the colour coordination bit.
ReplyDeleteDo we know what colour(s) the three of them were wearing?
To be honest I switched off when the Ceremony took place.
Where and when did Kate get hold of all this stuff she is preaching?
Good conversation. between Shula and Jim
I can’t understand why he was so pleased that the man was outed.
I would have thought that once the fellow had died that would have been enough .
Hope that is the end of it.
✔️✔️✔️ LJ
DeleteStasia, your comment re Helen and Tracey.
ReplyDeleteI had missed out in my comment last night, the most important aspect of last nights episode for me.
Helen actually spoke the words ..... that she regretted or felt guilty that she had brought Henry into a relationship with Rob.
Many of us, at the time, felt that this was the most unforgivable of Helens actions. That she had a small child whom she introduced into the relationship with Rob at a far too early stage thus putting that child in danger from Robs scheming mind.
I for one was extremely pleased to hear this statement coming from Helen but written of course by the SW as evidence of Helens reflection on her actions at that time.
As far as the colour coordination is concerned I see nothing amiss with the two dads wearing similar coloured shirts and ties and the baby in a matching coloured outfit, which was hardly likely to be a babygrow for a naming ceremony. Even I who has nothing to do with any baby am capable of observing that there are many attractive outfits for babies available to buy.
And despite Kate's airy fairy stuff a humanistic naming ceremony is surely just as legitimate as a christening service and can be solemn or joyful as the participants wish it to be.
Brian's words were written by one of imho one of our greatest poets Kahlil Gibran. They came from the section about children in The Prophet...... " they come through you but not from you " etc , and this was from a man who never had children himself. I have heard his preceding poem on marriage read in Church at weddings " let there be spaces in your togetherness, and let the winds of the heavens dance between you. Love one another, but make not a bond of love. Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls. Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup..." etc. The whole of his work is well worth reading.
ReplyDelete